wednes | Disagreement, or Fight?

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Disagreement, or Fight?

I've been reading a lot of Ann Landers/Dear Abby lately. Actually, it's called Annie's Mailbox since the REAL Ann Landers shuffled off this mortal coil.
Anyway, there was a letter from a woman who was about to get married and wanted to know how to keep from "growing apart" as couples sometimes do.
Annie (or Abby, I forget now) said one of the ways NOT to grow apart is to learn to disagree instead of fighting.

This is of particular interest to me. I'm a scrapper. I am passionate about a great many beleifs, like that Tony Soprano died at the end of the series, for example. Or that Obama is a good guy, or that the moon landing is questionable (okay, that's a running joke), or that racists and homophobes should shut up. I sometimes end up in huge arguments with people because I forget to simply disagree and get locked into a How could you possibly think _______________?!? mode. Like when people say Bush or McCain are okay guys to have in office. They are not, and I can't imagine how anyone might think that they are, anymore than I understand how Tony Soprano could be alive.

But with H, we calmly disagree. It's very unusual for us to even have raised voices, even though we disagree somewhat often. I used to get pissed off at him for not getting upset when I felt the situation called for it. I'm over it now, because I love living with someone who is not a volcano, waiting to erupt in a fit of screaming and ranting. I grew up with that, and am glad to be rid of it.

Of course, there are those situations when calmly disagreeing doesn't quite suit my purpose. I have a friend whose new habit is joining in a conversation just long enough to tell people thier comments don't matter. That pisses me right off, and I want to start arguing. Another peeve of mine is people who can't apologize no matter how wrong they are. I can't stand that shit. I want the person to see the error of their ways (as defined by me, of course). So I argue, till I'm blue in the face. I argue.

What about you's?
What makes you want to fight instead of calmly disagree?
Who enrages you to the point of madness, even though you'd rather stay calm?

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To me I guess a "Fight" has always been about something you NEEDED changed, and an argument is just a disagreement of ideas. I used to argue with Sara for hours about movies. She'd have some crazy idea about if a movie was good and why, or I would. We would go on and on like that. But in the end it was only fun IF we didn't agree. If we ALWAYS liked all the same movies, what fun would that be? I would FIGHT with my step dad when I was a teenager because he treated me like a runaway and I NEEDED him not to do that. So in the end I suppose that's how I see it. If H said he needed to use next months rent to buy crack (Which would also be rather uncharacteristic and might involve pod-people) the ensuing disagreement would be a FIGHT. If he felt you should pay the phone bill before the cable bill and you felt otherwise, that's an argument.

The other thing about it is just knowing that other person. I like to get up to all kinds of blustery business, but most of the time I'm just being me. I have a lot of overexagerated behaviors that are just me being playful. A stranger who had never met me might just think i'm a complete asshole. Hopefully people I know, know i'm just me.

As far as apologies. I learned a long time ago its better to admit you are wrong than pretend like your not but sometimes the male ego has a hard time with this because we are raised to be unswervingly infaliable to keep the women happy. Also, no man wants to be a fool in the eyes of his wife or girlfriend. Sometimes the Eddie Murphy "It wasn't me" strategy works. Other times, it doesn't.

Interesting. I like the idea that the needs involved determine whether it's an argument or a fight.

As for apologies, I think apologizing is a mature and self aware way to handle things when you've done something you wish you hadn't. By not apologizing, you're tacitly saying that your behavior is fine (not YOU, but the general you). Depending on the behavior, that's just not acceptable to me.

I agree that an animated discussion about movies and stuff can be a lot of fun, especially when people disagree. H loved Men in Black, for example. Sometimes though, I can't imagine where people are coming from. Like when you hated The Happening...I just can't see it. ;-]

I really enjoy listening to your ideas and then disagreeing with them :) Honestly, you and I frequently feel differently about things like movies and TV, and I enjoy going back and forth with you. In fact, I wished I liked Indy IV more because it would have been fun to get into it with how much you disliked it. I liked that movie more than you did, but not so much that I felt the need to argue over it, but again, it's typically just playful bantering and going over why we feel a certain way.

That's very kind of you to say. But I like you too much to have you like Indy more. ;)

For me, as you know, it's people who don't know why they feel one way or another.

"Why don't you like that?"
"I don't know, I just don't." or "It's stupid."

"Why is it stupid?"
"I don't know, it just is."

This drives me crazy because if you cannot back up why you feel a specific way then I am not interested in hearing it. You obviously haven't thought about it enough to have an opinion. When you can give me a reason why, I will listen to you.

Otherwise, I may completely disagree, but if you give me reasons why you feel a specific way, and can back them up, I will appreciate your thought on the matter.

Conflict is necessary in relationships. It helps teach how to work out problems and differences, so long as you listen and learn with each new event. It teaches you what to do and what not to do to upset your loved ones. Relationships without conflict frequently fail. Now that doesn't mean that you should go looking for fights, but to just blindly say, "ok dear, sorry, it won't happen again," frequently doesn't solve the problem. Explain to me why something was done a certain way, and then apologize. I will do the same, if the mistake is mine, which frequently isn't the case ;) It's always someone else's fault.

Indeed! I too am very into holding people accountable for the things they say, and for them to have valid reason for the crap that comes spewing out of their mouths.

I agree that some conflict is neccessary in a relationship. People naturally will disagree, and by not voicing said disagreement, resentments will build over time. I know people who dont' speak up when something's really bothering them, but then freak out about stupid shit because of displaced rage. No good.

You don't know what you are talking about. Also, Your mother is a hampster, and your father smells of old elderberries...!

oh wait, you agreed with me...

I knew I was right from the beginning.

I can answer the last question most easily: tone of voice can set me off big time. The other thing that can get to me is someone who continues to press a point despite not having any justification/backup for it whatsoever and being unwilling to acknowledge it. I think that's less of an issue with a philosophical/theoretical discussion than some sort of practical debate, but it's still a hot button for me.

What makes me fight ... well, the other night it was my sweetie wanting to discuss and come to a decision on something despite it not being an urgent matter and despite my not being in a frame of mind to discuss it clearly. If it's about something happening in 2+ weeks and needs no prep, then it's not urgent, period. And if it's not urgent and I'm not in a frame of mind to be discussing it (in part because of the previously mentioned tone of voice issue -- once it sets me off, I'll admit that it can be hard for me to come back from it completely) ... well, trying to get me to continue discussing it will result in an unpleasant outcome.

Hmm, actually that's something that irks me in general, too -- someone thinking something's urgent when it's really not, or treating something as if it's of supreme importance when, really, it's not. It's a bit ironic -- I can get more engaged in fighting about something that's really of little importance just because the other person is treating it as if it's some sort of life-or-death thing than I ever would about the topic itself. Not rational, I know.

Now, I'll admit that I have a rather limited view of what's urgent or truly important (the latter category can actually be flexible to adapt for someone else's priorities), but still.

H and I occasionally have issues with me thinking something is serious and timely and he just not worried about it. It's difficult for me to keep calm when he's just not "getting it". I eventually realized that that was my problem, and not him being an ass. So that was cool.

I totally hear you on the tone of voice thing.
Especially when I'm working a customer service gig, people's tone can totally irk me.

I used to fight a lot. With many people. For many different reasons. Now I generally prefer to calmly disagree. I really think that everyone is entitled to his or her own opinion on just about everything. However, I do see the need to fight if someone is trying to impose their opinion and/or choices on me. You know, like the pro-life folks, for example. I don't mind if they want to believe that abortion is wrong. But it angers me that they don't want me to believe that's not and even more that they want to control my behavior based on their belief.

One thing that can make me fly into a rage (when I'd much rather stay calm) is the implication that I am stupid. Whether it's conveyed by choice of words or tone of voice or even facial expression. I've been trying to calm down about this in part because I tend to be a little paranoid. I usually assume that people think the worst of me, so if words or a tone or an expression could be interpreted to mean that the speaker thinks I'm stupid, well--you know where that's going.

Totally.

I used to be uber sensitive about the whole "stupid" thing. My mom was a big fan of telling me how dumb I was...so I thought EVERYONE thought I was dumb. After a few years of therapy and some EMDR, I'm not so sensitive about it anymore.

Well, Wed, I think you know that I was quite infamous for my argumentative mentality.

BUT, over the past few years I've toned it down...let me explain the reasons I fought:

1) I was horrible High School student and was called stupid by teachers, counselors, friends, etc. What they failed to realize is that my many demons made me act out in various ways (not to mention normal teenage angst). I then began hating the fact that no matter how hard I tried, I was never taken seriously; so, I began to associate right with might. Even if I was right, my points were still lost beneath my anger and personal attacks. Moreover, my fear of looking foolish or stupid made me act in an almost "by any mean necessary" manner.

2) Personal anger issues - Sometimes unresolved anger makes a person lash out, regardless of who, what, when, where... My worst fights have happened when I was completely miserable with some/multiple aspect/s of my life.

3. Equating Passion with Power - this is almost redundant and it goes along with might makes right, but there were times I thought being an asshole was the way to support my causes - it is not. People who act aggressively to prove their point are only trying to maintain their own belief. Can one be offended, yes, but ideally power-trippin' isn't the answer. I mean, I loathe rascist, homophobic jokes, etc. but yelling out fuck you to someone isn't really going to solve anything...

4. Black and White/All or Nothing-type thinking - Little steps are often taken for granted. Many of us want it all and want it now (you can credit F. Mercury if you wish), but sometimes life is best with a slow cooker. Step by Step (you can credit NKOTB if you wish) will often quell the urge to fight.

Furthermore, it's not people that enrage me, as much as it is the existence of the views they support. There are so many factors that contribute to oppressive thinking from location, world exposure, education, experience, etc. - that's why knowledge (and I don't mean a piece of paper) and self-critique/questioning is so damn important.

No one is completely evolved and we all can grow - I think that's the answer to blowout fights - along with always focusing on how to Love (I know that sounds hippy-dippy).

Well said.

I don't think it's "hippy dippy" to talk about how important love is to the equation. I find with H, it's love that helps me compromise. I used to be so focused on my fucked up past and how life "owed" me something for all my misery, I didn't even think about how to be a good friend/partner to H, or to anyone for that matter. Wanting to make H happy (not that you can really make a person be happy, but you know what I mean) supercedes my wanting to get my way.

The thing about fighting, is that it's when most people are at their very worst. They aren't in control of their emotions and sometimes not their actions. You learn a lot about people by how they choose to disagree. I used to take that sort of thing very personally. But instead of thinking "damn, why do I let people treat me like ___", I've learned to say "Whoa, that dude has hangups" and not think I've done something to bring that behavior on myself.

As Ryan and Dave were saying, I'm all for healthy disagreements, but when they denegrate into personal attacks and fighting, I'm out. *claps hands, Cartman style*

Well, personally, I spend rather a lot of time silently stewing being a liberal atheist in an office rife with conservative evangelicals who cannot keep religion and politics out of the office. I do, when lines are crossed, remind management of their duty to keeping things fair and equal in the workplace.

For myself, I am not a fighter so much as an analyzer - I will pick apart what someone says, offer the logical consequences, if any, of their statements, then present my views. I always try to remain stoic in such situations. It's so engrained in my personality to be rather Spock-like in that regard that even when I vehemently disagree, I can keep a sort of professional sheen on an otherwise deeply upset Lorne. LOL

I've always admired the ability to remain stoic in the face of overwhelming, irritating opposition. I don't know how you people do that.

Ha! I said "you people."

I don't know what I would do in an office full of fundies and reds.
Yikes!!

It takes a lot of mental discipline sometimes.

As my sister will attest, I have a highly disciplined mind. LOL. I think this is what makes me just that much more crazy, as a result.

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