wednes | My Own Rage: I'm Choking on It.

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My Own Rage: I'm Choking on It.

Today, Amazon announced Amazon Worlds.
It's their shiny new fanfic platform so "writers" who can't quite get it together to create a milieu, settings, conflicts, arcs, or characters can still make money from their literary masturbation. For the record, I am pro-masturbation. I just don't want to see it online in places where I should be seeing the real thing. Also, fuck fanfic. Fuck it.

I'm not against fanfic, so long as it's for writing practice, and/or relegated to fanfic boards and discussed among fans of the genre. It's very nice that people love their TV shows and whatnot enough to make up their own stories. It's very cute, like adding your own doodles to a coloring book. But these doodles need not find their way into the gift shop at the Louvre...or even the DIA. I also find it a little disheartening when a fanfic writer has fifty kajillion readers while I still don't have a single book with 40 Amazon reviews. But this isn't about me. This is about books.

It's bad enough that scads of self-important douchebags put out a new shitty, unedited book every six weeks and that new readers have to wade through thousands of said shitty books in order to find anything decent. But this? God fucking dammit. Not only that, but it's ALL gonna be self-published, which means that there will be no filter, and little if any editing (not that I have a whole lot of room to talk about editing).
Also, if fanfic is published, how does one distinguish what is actually becoming canon in a given lexicon?

And before someone else asks me if I would be complimented if someone wrote fanfic about Sadie, or Mikey, or any other character of mine--listen up. I'm a mature adult, which means I can refrain from killing you, or even hitting you. But if you steal my characters and do some fucked up shit with them--I will hate you with every fibre of my being. Hate. Honest-to-Zod wishing terrible things on you, lighting black candles in your honor, almost ashamed at my own intensely vitriolic loathing of anyone who would do this where it could be seen by another human being (or sentient being of any other species).

When people talk about their pets as if they are their children, I find that annoying. I'm not Pentelope and JoJo's "mom." That's just dumb IMO.
But my characters? I *am* their creator. They are mine. MINE! And they don't do a goddamn thing unless I say so (are you also noticing that this attitude would not actually be conducive to child rearing?).

Amazon, I've always stuck up for you and your outsourcing ways. And this is how you do me? No...
I'm so sad.
Seriously, I wish this hadn't happened during my menses because I am not taking it well at all. I kinda feel like Writing is over; but that's alarmist isn't it?
Isn't it?

In other writing news, I'm almost half way through reading Oryx and Crake. It's kicking my ass, for sure. What I find most amazing about it is that the writing is lyrical and poetic even though the POV character is not. Because I write mainly in the first-person, I don't do this. I've told myself that it can't be that way--but now that I see that it can, I feel sort of remiss in some way. Like I could have been writing a whole lot better but I wasn't pushing myself, reasoning that the prose had to sound like the character.
Then again, one could argue that the strength of my writing is the raw voices. At any rate, Atwood is inspiring me to try some more 3rd person stuff and to play around with poetic language amid abrasive characters.

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So, what are your feelings on Lovecraft Mythos writers? Or anthologies like Shadows Over Baker Street?

Personally, I'd consider that a grey area...more an homage than a fanfic. Plus, Lovecraft's work is old enough that it's not a copyright violation to have it published. On the down side, we don't really know how Lovecraft would feel about it.

Plus, Lovecraft's work is old enough that it's not a copyright violation to have it published

Neither is this publishing deal. The rights holder is firmly involved in the process.

On the down side, we don't really know how Lovecraft would feel about it

That's the great thing about the public domain; it doesn't really matter how he would feel about it.

Legally, no. It doesn't matter what the original writer feels about it. But I should think that a writer using the work of an earlier writer against their wishes would, at least, be considered a dick move. I imagine we all remember the clown who wrote the book about the old man named Holden who went on a wacky adventure after escaping from an old folks home. Yuck!

I'm aware that the production company is selling the copyrights. That, of course, means that the writers aren't being consulted at all. Sure, it's legal; but as a writer, I think it's reasonable to be pissed as hell.

But I should think that a writer using the work of an earlier writer against their wishes would, at least, be considered a dick move

If there is no copyright anymore then their wishes would simply be their opinion.

but as a writer, I think it's reasonable to be pissed as hell.

You clearly haven't done write-for-spec then. The writers of those television series never owned those shows; they were owned by the packager, Alloy, from first pitch.

I can't get behind the idea that any writer can just fuck off if they don't like what people are doing with characters (etc) that they created. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that seems to be what you're saying here. I mean, I know artists get dicked around by that sort of thing often enough. But I don't think it should be celebrated, or even monetized. I'd raise holy hell if I saw one of my characters online fucking Severus Snape or battling the Cullen family...to think that the "writer" of this might be getting rich off of it is too much to stomach.

That said, I readily admit that a lot of my disdain for this project comes from the fact that teenage fan girls are going to make money I can't make writing even after 7+ years of diligent writing and constant marketing. I'd guess it's similar to garage bands who practice for years and then lose their recording studio contract to some cupcake who won American Idol. Amazon Worlds is a fine example of how originality and artistic vision get shunted aside to make room for vacuous shit that makes money in the short term. Granted, I don't watch Pretty Little Liars, but I have trouble believing that it will inspire great literature.

But hey, you got me, I've never been contracted to write for a television series.
I wasn't aware that you had--but that's awesome.

I can't get behind the idea that any writer can just fuck off if they don't like what people are doing with characters (etc) that they created. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that seems to be what you're saying here.

First of all, you seem to be getting overly emotional in the "BUT THEY'RE WRITERS!"

When a person writes for spec, they are writing what someone else wants. Contractually, and creatively, what they have made isn't theirs. It's like if I come up with a character in my head and I describe it to an artist for them to draw with the agreement being that the character is mine; they are just the hands putting it on paper. That's what writing for television shows is. Do you think that the writers of Star Trek owned those characters? Do you think Joss owns Buffy? Do you think the people who write in the expanded Star Wars Universe own those characters? No. They are writing for spec.

I mean, I know artists get dicked around by that sort of thing often enough.

Sure, people like Jack Kirby got fucked over big. However, it's not getting "dicked around" if you go into the deal willingly.

I'd raise holy hell if I saw one of my characters online fucking Severus Snape or battling the Cullen family...to think that the "writer" of this might be getting rich off of it is too much to stomach.

Yeah, but they're not and you would be completely in the right if that happened. However, that's not what is happening.

That said, I readily admit that a lot of my disdain for this project comes from the fact that teenage fan girls are going to make money I can't make writing even after 7+ years of diligent writing and constant marketing.

Ok, so jealousy.

I'd guess it's similar to garage bands who practice for years and then lose their recording studio contract to some cupcake who won American Idol.

The entitlement in this sentence is pretty thick.

Amazon Worlds is a fine example of how originality and artistic vision get shunted aside to make room for vacuous shit that makes money in the short term.

Because no creativity can ever come from using another person's characters or concepts, right? So I guess the contributors to the recent tribute anthology for Bordertown weren't creative, original, or artistic? Give me a break.

Granted, I don't watch Pretty Little Liars, but I have trouble believing that it will inspire great literature.

Who says it has to be "great literature". The more I participate in this the more I see you tripping over your own baggage.

I wasn't aware that you had--but that's awesome.

I haven't, but I know people who have and I'm familiar with the legal aspects and concepts around doing so.

Yeah, I get it. You don't agree.
I'm not sure why that means you have to be an asshole about it.

But then, maybe I'm just too "overly emotional" to understand a complex issue like something you create belonging to you instead of belonging to everyone. I guess having opinions on the things I write just leaves me with "too much baggage" right?

Right now, Lena Dunham is fretting because of the porn parody of her show, Girls. Yes, it is legal for them to make a porn version of a feminist show. Does that make it any less of a dick move? No, not even if it's really good porn. But sure, it's legal, so why the fuck not tear down something someone else worked their ass off on if it makes you a few bucks, right?

I'm not clear on what the argument for Amazon Worlds is, other than "Hey, they said I could."
Yeah, that's true. And you can do it. But I--nobody really, has to like it.

But then, maybe I'm just too "overly emotional" to understand a complex issue like something you create belonging to you instead of belonging to everyone.

That's the thing you don't seem to be getting here: the writers did not create those shows, at least not in the sense that you created your original works. They were given an assignment, paid to write something very, very specific. Kevin J. Anderson, when he is paid to write in other people's worlds, does not own what he writes.

I guess having opinions on the things I write just leaves me with "too much baggage" right?

Well, considering the fact that Amazon Worlds isn't about "the things [you] write" so, yeah, I'm thinking you're tripping over your own baggage by inserting yourself into a situation that has nothing to do with you.

Does that make it any less of a dick move?

Honestly, I'm unwilling to make a judgment of whether or not its a dick move. Does it run counter to her intent to make her show? Maybe. But are the parodies of Micky Mouse highlighting the greed of Disney a "dick move"? Is Saturday Night Live a dick move?

so why the fuck not tear down something someone else worked their ass off on if it makes you a few bucks, right?

I was unaware that someone else making a porn parody of Girls meant that Girls would stop being successful or cease to exist. Oh, what a cruel world where a parody ultimately destroys the original work. Please.

If I may put in my two cents, I personally feel like the Lovecraft Mythos is huge enough and original enough that the universe kind of took on a life of its own, much like Tolkien's Middle Earth. D&D and a plethora of roleplaying video games were based off Middle Earth (any true D&D geek can tell you that Halflings are Hobbits). Lovecraft's universe is similarly iconic enough to invite derivative works that in no way take away from the originals.

And who is to say stories written for this venue would take away from the originals? Does The Elfstones of Shanarra, the most blatant rip off of Tolkein I've ever seen, detract any less from as incredible and inspiring as Tolkein's work?

That's basically what I'm saying, though. Tolkien and Lovecraft basically created GENRES with their worldbuilding. When you write a story with Elder Gods in it, it doesn't really matter if you mention the L name; everyone knows it's an homage. Elves and dwarves? Likewise Tolkien. If you write about a kid who discovers they have magic powers... well, that could really be anything. The Magical Kid genre is huge, and was invented by... hell, the Greeks? So by using someone else's characters and setting in (say) a Magical Kid genre, you are being incredibly lazy. You like Magical Kid stories? Great. Write your own.

tl;dr
Harry Potter fanfic is not the same as an original story about elves

Stories of elves and dwarves predate Tolkein by long shots, especially if you're going to try and say a "magical kid" genre was the product of the Greeks. Likewise Tolkein with Elder Gods, there were other writers, some of whom were correspondents of his, who were writing such fiction way before Lovecraft sold his first story to Weird Tales.

So if your whole premise is "you're being lazy using someone else's world, unless that person is a big name", I think you have a large problem with your PoV.

For the record, my beef isn't about fanfic taking anything away from the original work. At this point, we're only talking about those teenage soap operas starring absurdly beautiful people--it's not like they're licensing Breaking Bad or Mad Men.

I'm certainly not deluded enough to think all writers have enough integrity not to steal others work whether it's legal or not. And people can't help but be influenced by what they read and watch. I just sat through an entire season of The Following, thinking the whole time that Thomas Harris should sue Kevin Williamson and FOX for stealing his shit. But for all I know, Harris's publisher could have given permission for that travesty. But I maintain that watching a TV show or movie, and then writing your own stories about it is much more a writing exercise than something that should be making money in its own right. It's still literary masturbation IMO.

I'm certainly not deluded enough to think all writers have enough integrity not to steal others work whether it's legal or not.

It's not stealing if it's legal.

I see.
So the bank bail out that left millions homeless and the oil company subsidies are all perfectly moral because those profiting have enough power to pass laws in their favor? 501c4's, also moral?

By that logic, smoking pot without a note from a doctor is immoral in my state, but smoking with a doctors note is not. Seems legit.

C'mon now.
Morality and legality are not remotely the same.

Huh, I've reread what I said a number of times and I never used the words "moral". How about you go back and reread what you read, then reread what I wrote, and respond to what I ACTUALLY said.

Or I can help you out. You complained about stealing. Stealing is a crime. Something cannot be a crime if it's legal. This is absent any notion of morality; something is either a crime or it isn't by law. You never said anything about morality in the comment before where you quoted me.

If you're going to argue a line of reasoning, it would help if you remained consistent.

"Morality and legality are not remotely the same."

You're completely right; I wasn't commenting on morality, only legality.

Gosh, it sounds like your baggage is making you overly emotional.

I get it, Amazon has now decreed that profiting off your (the general you, not YOU you) addition to someone else work is legal, therefore the taking is not legally stealing, it's just taking. And taking is okay now, because Amazon legalized it. If you don't want to see it as stealing, by all means, don't. I see it as yet another thing that people more powerful than I have decided is okay--because they want to profit from it. But on a human morality level, I still think it's fucked up.

Gosh, it sounds like your baggage is making you overly emotional.

Ok.

Amazon has now decreed that profiting off your (the general you, not YOU you) addition to someone else work is legal...But on a human morality level, I still think it's fucked up.

That's not what they've done at all. They've reached a specific agreement with a specific group to allow people to be paid for derivative writing of specific works. The owners of the works have said that other people can write in their worlds using their characters. That's not stealing.

You may not like the fact that people you consider inferior writers, writing in worlds you don't like, are possibly going to get paid for it, you've certainly made that clear, but what's going on here isn't stealing, it's not even taking, and it's not immoral. The writers of those shows did not own those characters or worlds they were paid to write for, not ever; that's the nature of the contracts and work that they did. I would agree with you if Amazon was doing something like trying to monetize Harry Potter fanfic without JK Rowling's permission, or any other work ACTUALLY owned by the writer, but this is no different than someone being paid to write a Doctor Who novel; Allow has just lowered the bar so that other people can possibly play.

And that's the part I think you're really upset about. I think you're really upset that people who you see as beneath you, doing something you see as lesser or not as valid as what you do, may be getting a shred of legitimacy because your arguments about people's work being stolen are empty as that's not what is going on. You can't get beyond your bias regarding fan fiction, that it's not "real" writing (i.e. "writing exercise", "literary masturbation"), so you're trying to spin this into some kind of moral outrage about something being taken from the writers that was never theirs to begin with, because saying "These people are beneath me and why should they get any kind of attention?" is a crappy, egotistical thing to say.

Except you essentially did say that "I readily admit that a lot of my disdain for this project comes from the fact that teenage fan girls are going to make money I can't make writing even after 7+ years of diligent writing and constant marketing."

Except you essentially did say that...

Well, the important thing is that you took my admitted insecurity and ground it into my arm like a smoldering cigarette. I'm glad you've enjoyed deducing things that I've said outright.

I don't know how this could possibly have escaped you as a regular reader of my journal, but I'm an extremely damaged, pathetically insecure person. I majored in theatre because it ends with applause.
I also believe I'm producing good work that nobody gives a shit about despite fervent marketing on my part. In addition to every other point I've made, I'm pissed as hell that fanfic writers are about to join the endless fray of unknowns that people have to wade through to find anything good. My numerous unsuccessful attempts to achieve readership are driving me to the point of madness--which is not to say that I'm better or worse than anyone else. Only that there's no real way for someone like me to compete with other new books that already have a fan base of millions. And if you don't think it's about competition, you may not fully understand how Amazon rankings work. I don't know why that makes me such a bad guy in your eyes--or why you feel like you need to school me about how wrong my opinions are.

I also LJ-cut my condescending and bitchy comments about fanfic, so that anyone who might take personal offense could avoid them and spare themselves the anger. Simply not clicking was too much temptation for you. That's me schooled, I guess. For the record, I post my thoughts on things to inform people as to what my thoughts are. I'm not requesting that you agree, not trying to convince anyone of anything.

I'll also mention that I supported the Kickstarter for your Cthulhurotica antho, because I thought it was an awesome concept. It's sitting on my Kindle right now. As I stated in my first reply to you, my comments on fanfic do not apply to fiction that pays homage to a classic. In fact, I'm pretty open minded about that shit--having just wrote eleven glowing reviews for Bates Motel. As for Amazon Worlds, this applies to one group of TV shows right now. It's the beginning of something huge, barring some porn-related oversight. This thing is going to expand like wildfire, and unless contracts have predicted this--it will not be up to authors what is licensed and what isn't. I daresay I'm not the only writer who's unnerved by this.

In addition to every other point I've made, I'm pissed as hell that fanfic writers are about to join the endless fray of unknowns that people have to wade through to find anything good.

Unless you're intending to join in that particular sandbox, I don't think you have anything to worry about as what they're writing is so focused they might as well be in another genre.

I don't know why that makes me such a bad guy in your eyes--or why you feel like you need to school me about how wrong my opinions are.

I didn't say you were a bad person, I pointed out your pretty negative opinion regarding other people, people who haven't done or are doing anything wrong.

Simply not clicking was too much temptation for you. That's me schooled, I guess.

If you don't want people to disagree with your opinions, don't post them out in the open. Saying "I was shouting inside my house with an open window, you didn't have to listen" is disingenuous; yeah, I didn't have to click it, but if you didn't want it read then why did you post it?

I'll also mention that I supported the Kickstarter for your Cthulhurotica antho, because I thought it was an awesome concept. It's sitting on my Kindle right now.

Thank you.

As I stated in my first reply to you, my comments on fanfic do not apply to fiction that pays homage to a classic.

That's incredibly arbitrary. Why is fanfic about a classic more valid than fanfic about a show that came out a few years ago? Does it really make any difference when the originating work was produced?

As for Amazon Worlds, this applies to one group of TV shows right now. It's the beginning of something huge, barring some porn-related oversight. This thing is going to expand like wildfire, and unless contracts have predicted this--it will not be up to authors what is licensed and what isn't.

Considering that, legally speaking, if a contract does not mention a right being transferred than that right remains with the creator I'd say they're ok (especially as I've seen several instances of authors successfully going after publishers who produce versions of their works the publisher didn't have the rights to). An author, if they own the copyright, will have a say in what is and is not licensed.

Yeah, it's arbitrary. I guess I'm quirky that way. When I talk about paying homage to a classic, I speak of writing that is written out of deep admiration for the writer and/or the work. To me, that feels much different than shipping characters on Gossip Girl. The idea that someone who is only vaguely interested in the source material (ie: the most recent seasons of True Blood and Criminal Minds) is obscene to me. In fairness, I'm sure the kids writing this fanfic are big fans of the show--even if it's in a trend-fueled way as opposed to thoughtful adoration. Yeah, I suppose I do have some pretty lofty ideas about lit that sound pretty snooty when I articulate them. I'm okay with that.

To be clear, I wasn't saying "I'm posting this but don't read it." I was saying "I'm gonna say mean stuff about fanfic; so if that makes you mad maybe you shouldn't read it." But you know, the internet is a place of intense outrage. I'm certainly not immune to it. That said, I feel very much like you were on a mission to convince me that my views are wrong or that I'm a hypocrite for having them. I'm all for passionate discourse, but I wasn't attacking people who write fanfic, I was attacking fanfic and the monetizing of it. And I felt like you were attacking me, which in turn led me to feel defensive. Drag.
People have tons of different opinions on art, some are even more bitter and spiteful than mine. Am I proud that I'm already a bitter crank? Not really. But that doesn't mean I have to love, or even come to terms with monetized fanfic based on teen dramas. And when the slash starts, my anger may ripen even further. But for you, I'll put it under a cut. ;-]

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My Own Rage: I'm Choking on It.

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