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Backtrack: in the before time
Hi kids,
I was chating with one of my new cyber pals, and he pointed out that at an earlier point in my life, I once said something interesting about why Christians bother me, even though in the abstract, i respect everyones right to beleive as they chose.
I think a lot of this debate comes down to simple small-mindedness. My biggest gripe with devout Chirstians over the years is the stance of "we are free to beleive what we want, but if you don't love my god you'll go to hell so I'm going to help you change your mind". While working in retail jobs, I eventually took it upon myself to make up Pagan and Craft oriented pamphlets so i can reciprocate to all those "well meanning" Christians who give me "somthing to read" while Im trying to ring up thier order.
I was once told by an interviewer that it was stupid to wear a pentacle to a job interveiw, and that I wouldn't be able to wear one to work, should I be hired. No sooner did I leave his office when I noticed his receptionist wore a rather large necklace featuring a man being totured and killed as he hung on a cross. How on Earth is a star in a circle more offensive than torture?
Having realized i would not be hired, I posed my question to the interviewer. he informed me that my jewelry obviously meant I was a Satanist. i informed him that only inverted 5-pointed stars are symbolic of Satanism. he said it was the same thing, until I reminded him that inverted crosses also symbolized Satanism, but that upright ones meant something else entirely.
I think people take comfort in laws like this because it keeps them from having to decide things on thier own, which means they have to know things, and then think about them. That's an awful lot of work for most people.
I try to keep in mind that people think in language, so controlling words is an indirect way to control thoughts.
I was chating with one of my new cyber pals, and he pointed out that at an earlier point in my life, I once said something interesting about why Christians bother me, even though in the abstract, i respect everyones right to beleive as they chose.
I think a lot of this debate comes down to simple small-mindedness. My biggest gripe with devout Chirstians over the years is the stance of "we are free to beleive what we want, but if you don't love my god you'll go to hell so I'm going to help you change your mind". While working in retail jobs, I eventually took it upon myself to make up Pagan and Craft oriented pamphlets so i can reciprocate to all those "well meanning" Christians who give me "somthing to read" while Im trying to ring up thier order.
I was once told by an interviewer that it was stupid to wear a pentacle to a job interveiw, and that I wouldn't be able to wear one to work, should I be hired. No sooner did I leave his office when I noticed his receptionist wore a rather large necklace featuring a man being totured and killed as he hung on a cross. How on Earth is a star in a circle more offensive than torture?
Having realized i would not be hired, I posed my question to the interviewer. he informed me that my jewelry obviously meant I was a Satanist. i informed him that only inverted 5-pointed stars are symbolic of Satanism. he said it was the same thing, until I reminded him that inverted crosses also symbolized Satanism, but that upright ones meant something else entirely.
I think people take comfort in laws like this because it keeps them from having to decide things on thier own, which means they have to know things, and then think about them. That's an awful lot of work for most people.
I try to keep in mind that people think in language, so controlling words is an indirect way to control thoughts.
no subject
you are so right- as usual... people can be so closed minded. I'm so confused as to why people think that being a wiccan is bad. I mean- I think I've met a lot more really nice Wiccans than I've met nice Christians. I never feel like a Wiccan is judging me.
Re:
So, are we still getting together to make-out, or what?
(insert huge, cheese eatin' grin here)
I am a yellow-belly
But I guess it was obvious you weren't going to get the job.
But I still would have been scared.
Re: I am a yellow-belly
And this was awhile ago, when I had a lot more money at my disposal. I'd have to be much more humble now.
Yup...
I think I find Christian fundamentalism one of the scariest things in modern Western civilisation, because so many people seem to accept it as the status quo without ever questioning it. Even scarier than that is that people seem to think that religion ( for religion read the Christian religion ) should be intrinsically linked to the state. I'm of the belief that in any truly civilised culture the machineries of church and state should be kept separate. By all means I believe in a moral and humane world, but one in which noone should be able to legislate doctrine through law and enforce their own beliefs on others ( such as the fundamentalists trying to get sex education programs in schools banned because they believe that sex outside of marriage is inherently sinful )
I consider myself an agnostic, but I find the lack of judgement prevalent in religions such as Paganism and Wicca to be far preferable to Fundamentalist Dogma. I think this lack of judgement can be attributed to the very nature of Paganism and Wicca itself. They seem to be belief systems that primarily emancipate the individual and encourage thought and the examination and celebration of life, gender and sexuality itself ( something that I don't think Christianity has ever succeeded in doing...How can you feel good about yourself and life when you're told that you are born into sin from day one ? That's the most fucked up, psychologically damaging thing that you can say to a child as far as I'm concerned. ). Most Wiccans and Pagans that I've met also reject any kind of fundamentalism and readily accept the presence of other religions, due to their own belief in there being aspects of the deities/god/goddess rather than any singular God-head, if you will ( therefore its possible for the likes of Jesus, Buddha and Allah to exist alongside the likes of the skyfather, earth-mother, Bast and Danu...as they believe that people perceive the forces that guide the universe in different ways )
Unfortunately we still live in a world dominated by the hypocritical patriarchy of state ordained religion. However, in the UK at least, people have become a lot more tolerant of Wicca and Pagan in general, in recent years. I think this is mainly due to people learning more about them as beliefs and the prevalence of positive role models from these beliefs in the media. Besides, I'd rather work with a Wiccan than a fundamentalist Christian anyday. The Wiccans I've met, in contrast to the FC's I've met, seem to be generally cooler, less hypocritical, more open-minded people, by their very nature...that and they're not always trying to convert you ;)
Re: Yup...
Re: Yup...
Way to have my back on the issue.
My first reaction...
"Dude, that's SO illegal." I would have had the guy's ass up against the wall and threatened a religious discrimination lawsuit before you could have said Civil Rights Act. Not that I'm ordinarily litigious, but I don't like buttheads. Even if you WERE a Satanist, it's a religion under the Civil Rights Act (it doesn't have to be a bonafide tax-free registered religion to count anyway), and he is 1) not allowed to discriminate based on this fact or 2) ban you from wearing symbols of your religion if you are hired. There may be a way around 2) if he bans EVERYONE from doing it, but that's borderlining, and it would be really unpopular anyway. Therefore, damned straight you can wear one to work, and sue his butt if he doesn't like it.
I wear a pentacle on my right thumb. It's pretty unobtrusive, and I prefer to keep it that way. Often I will turn it palmwards if someone in my office is inspecting my jewelry, just to prevent the inevitable question and answer session. But I announced loudly at the Christmas Caroling rehearsal last winter, "I'm not Christian, and I'm not offended by the religious songs, so personally I think people should just stop bitching." *heh* They were *very* taken aback, and someone said, "Why are you singing with us?" and I said, equally taken aback, that I liked Christmas, and I liked Christmas music of all kinds, and what's wrong with that? It's not like I'm taking Holy Vows by singing Silent Night. They all assumed that I was Jewish, of course. I look kinda Jewish. "Funny, she doesn't look Druish..." *snicker*
My boss is very Christian. So Christian, in fact, that he cannot wrap his brain around the *fictional* world of Buffy where there are Hell Gods and such. "But....but....there's only one God!" Yes, and He made your head out of brick. I fear he's never even thought about the world's *actual* religions. Even Hinduism is a well-known, well-established pantheistic religion; you don't have to go to Paganism to find that. Duh?
That said, I don't have any more problem with Christians than I do with Pagans. I know assholes in every religion, including those without religion. I have a Baptist friend who is very devout and very okay with me being Pagan. I have a couple of other Christian friends who are curious about my beliefs without ever trying to convert me. And at the same time, I know Pagans who are every bit as stilted, stifled, judgemental, and stupid as Pagans generally accuse Christians (as a whole) of being. Solitary Pagans almost never fall into that category, but some of the ones that belong to highly structured orders do, and BOY are they annoying.
Fanatics of any kind are icky. Same can be said for the Middle East mess...it's not the Jews or the Muslims, it's the fanatics, and they come in all stripes. :P
Re: My first reaction...
Another witch used to come into Blockbuster and be upset with me because I didn't want to discuss religion with her. I was at my job, managing a shift and serving other customers. Everytime she'd say something about Wicca to me (she practised with a big group, and seemed disdainful of solitaries) shed make a point of telling me how rude it is for me not to chat with her.
I agree that dogmatic views are more the problem than the specific religious affiliation. Yet, I have been irritated, harassed, and subjected to intense ignorance while being judged by Christians, and not really anyone else.
Re: My first reaction...
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Rede of Witchcraft
Witchcraft is not Wicca. Wicca is a religion created in the 1950's by Gerald Gardner. It uses ceremonial magic and covens and generally picked up buzzwords from the lexicon of 'witchcraft' to worship a God and Goddess.
Witchcraft has nothing to do with worship. There are some people out there who worship a specific pagan pantheon and tie in their practice of magic to that worship, but they are not the majority. Doing spells to influence the way things go has been done for much longer a time than Wicca has been around. It is compatible with pretty much any religion, depending on your outlook.
I am an Odinist but I'm learning witchcraft, which is just that: a craft. I work with the Aesir and Vanir while I do magic on the side. There is no "Rede" that I follow - just common sense. I've never been bit for something I did and the "Rule of Three" isn't applicable to me at all. I'll be responsible but I won't tiptoe around and be scared of harming someone or getting a bad spell back three times over.
There's no vengeful force around, it's just a bunch of energy I can poke at. Let me say this again - there is no rede that says "An it harm none.." for witchcraft. That's for Wicca, created by the first generation of Wiccans back in the 50's. There is no Charge of the Goddess or Witches' Rune. A Wiccan is a Wiccan. A Wiccan is not a witch.
There is a big difference between these two and I dislike how they're so often blended together when people ask about religion. You can be Wiccan and not do magic! The whole point of Wicca is to celebrate nature and the God and Goddess, it's got nothing to do with magic and this page has everything to do with magic and nothing to do with Wicca.
Re: My first reaction...
But this guy seems to be one of those angry loner types. He seems to focus on the names of things and ferreting out contradictions in the various histories of events.
I hope mister McDonald is not seriously set back if he chooses to perform ritual with no regard for others. That can not be a happy space to be in.
Thanks for aprising us of a new veiwpoint Rob!