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Reason #965 why no one should listen to celebrities:
Elton John has decided that all religion should be banned. Yes, thank you Elton. We were waiting with baited breath for you to chime in. I can't recall how many times I've said Wow, the world is such a crazy place...people hating and not loving. If only Elton John would speak up and tell us what to do...you know, when Mel Gibson, Michael Stipe and Bono run out of ideas.
In all seriousness, plenty of people are ready and willing to tell you which religions are so bad they deserve to be banned. Many Christians have said this of Islam, pointing out that thier secred text says that women are worth less than men. And clearly, that's bad when taken literally. It's also tough talk coming from a christian. I presume I don't need to list examples of things the bible supports but would horrify contemporary peoples. Even sacred texts reflect the times in which they were written, edited, or translated. Duh. That's why you're supposed to do a new one every couple hundred years...and why it sucks that people are so resistive to change. I know plenty of pagans who are outspoken anti-christians, usually becuase of their own negative experiences with pushy family members, or excessive dogma. And of course many atheists think anybody with a religion is a little bit crazy.
In the past, Elton has also come out (so to speak) about "Cafeteria Christians" which purportedly indicates someone who "picks and chooses" what tennants of a religion to follow. According to him and others, this is bad. This could also be called "thinking with your brain." For example, while the Catholic ideology teaches condemnation of gays, it is still possible to have been raised Catholic and not beleive this. Does this make you less of a Catholic? Or does this make Catholicism less applicable to modern society? Or does it mean that you have to change churches whenever you change your mind? I don't really know, as pagans generally just use words like 'solitary' and 'eccelectic' to explain their picky choosy ways. And that's totally cool by me.
Claiming that religion causes violence is just silly. I don't think anyone would argue that the purpose of religion is to give people reasons to hate, or to kill. I've always thought religion is how we answer questions that science has no answers for yet. From the constellations to what happens when we die, religion helps us be less afraid. It helps us feel that there is power greater than ourselves, and that the things we do have meanning in some larger sense. Maybe none of that is true and we just need to beleive it, but in either case, it's not about hate.
Saying that religion is the cause of hate is like saying Jodie Foster is responsible for the Reagan assasination attempt, or that cable TV makes teenagers want to have sex. Just because violent people use violent book passages as excuses for violence, doesn't mean there is any causality. I know plenty of people who love both gays and Jesus, even if Elton John doesn't hasn't met them. I'm sure it's frustrating as hell not to be able to be legally married to your partner. It's ridiculousness of the highest order. Again, just because people are using the christian bible as an excuse to persecute, doesn't mean that Jesus would have approved. I've never met him, but I imagine he'd be pissed to learn that people have been hating and persecuting him his name.
And finally, "religion" does not mean Christian, Judeo-Christian, Western, Eastern or any other branch of religion. It means any religion. So when you say "religion...blah blah blah" you're talking about every kind of organized spirituality. So you may wish to be more inclusive...especially when your point is that "religion" is not inclusive enough.
While I'm talking about Elton, I'll ask why he hasn't put out but one decent song since the 80's (and I dont' mean that Lady Diana claptrap either). Seriously Elton, what up wit dat?!?
Lastly, I'll mention that I broke 21K today in my NaNoWriMo novel. Woot!
In all seriousness, plenty of people are ready and willing to tell you which religions are so bad they deserve to be banned. Many Christians have said this of Islam, pointing out that thier secred text says that women are worth less than men. And clearly, that's bad when taken literally. It's also tough talk coming from a christian. I presume I don't need to list examples of things the bible supports but would horrify contemporary peoples. Even sacred texts reflect the times in which they were written, edited, or translated. Duh. That's why you're supposed to do a new one every couple hundred years...and why it sucks that people are so resistive to change. I know plenty of pagans who are outspoken anti-christians, usually becuase of their own negative experiences with pushy family members, or excessive dogma. And of course many atheists think anybody with a religion is a little bit crazy.
In the past, Elton has also come out (so to speak) about "Cafeteria Christians" which purportedly indicates someone who "picks and chooses" what tennants of a religion to follow. According to him and others, this is bad. This could also be called "thinking with your brain." For example, while the Catholic ideology teaches condemnation of gays, it is still possible to have been raised Catholic and not beleive this. Does this make you less of a Catholic? Or does this make Catholicism less applicable to modern society? Or does it mean that you have to change churches whenever you change your mind? I don't really know, as pagans generally just use words like 'solitary' and 'eccelectic' to explain their picky choosy ways. And that's totally cool by me.
Claiming that religion causes violence is just silly. I don't think anyone would argue that the purpose of religion is to give people reasons to hate, or to kill. I've always thought religion is how we answer questions that science has no answers for yet. From the constellations to what happens when we die, religion helps us be less afraid. It helps us feel that there is power greater than ourselves, and that the things we do have meanning in some larger sense. Maybe none of that is true and we just need to beleive it, but in either case, it's not about hate.
Saying that religion is the cause of hate is like saying Jodie Foster is responsible for the Reagan assasination attempt, or that cable TV makes teenagers want to have sex. Just because violent people use violent book passages as excuses for violence, doesn't mean there is any causality. I know plenty of people who love both gays and Jesus, even if Elton John doesn't hasn't met them. I'm sure it's frustrating as hell not to be able to be legally married to your partner. It's ridiculousness of the highest order. Again, just because people are using the christian bible as an excuse to persecute, doesn't mean that Jesus would have approved. I've never met him, but I imagine he'd be pissed to learn that people have been hating and persecuting him his name.
And finally, "religion" does not mean Christian, Judeo-Christian, Western, Eastern or any other branch of religion. It means any religion. So when you say "religion...blah blah blah" you're talking about every kind of organized spirituality. So you may wish to be more inclusive...especially when your point is that "religion" is not inclusive enough.
While I'm talking about Elton, I'll ask why he hasn't put out but one decent song since the 80's (and I dont' mean that Lady Diana claptrap either). Seriously Elton, what up wit dat?!?
Lastly, I'll mention that I broke 21K today in my NaNoWriMo novel. Woot!
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Sometimes I feel as if Science is a religion, with it's big bang theories and such...but, you know me, I've never had any strong affinity for Science.
The only religion that I see problematic enough to be banned is the worship of money, which seems to be the true core of the world's self-destruction and hatred. I would even argue that being anti-gay marriage has a lot to do with the allocation of funds that are usually reserved for straight married couples and a fear that these could be sparsed due to demand. Yes, there is discrimination and hatred apart from money, but often times they are interlinked.
That's my two cents... How the heck are ya Wed? Congrats on next year's Wed(nes)ding! I could totally be the wedding singer, LOL.
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Yeah...I've never been a fan of the absolutist view either.
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Well, are you having a party for the ol' B-day? Hope you have a blast whatever you do!
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Yeah, the birthday party will be a riot (not literally) as always.
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And yes, wanting to ban all religion is as dogmatic as well...anything.
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I'm pretty much with Elton on this issue. What you've written has made me think a lot. Thank you.
The problem with religion is that it's irrational -- I have my beliefs and you have yours. This isn't a problem until our dogmas conflict about something important. Neither of us can back down, because each of us believes we have God backing us up. Historically speaking, this kind of shit happens a lot. And in this way religion has caused a lot of violence. Sure, for any act of apparent religion-motivated violence, we can say well, religion was an excuse — he was just a murdering bastard and would have done it anyway. But that's not really ever a testable theory. And it doesn't often hold water for me.
We're able to live together because most followers are Cafeteria Christians/Muslims/Jews/etc. You say they're thinking with their brains (i.e. being rational) but the willingness to be irrational (i.e. faith) is necessary to religion. How does someone who has a list of God-given rules to live by choose which ones to follow? Are we going to ignore the ones that don't seem truthy? Remember, breaking them is going against God and (depending on your faith) could set you up for eternal suffering!
You said: For example, while the Catholic ideology teaches condemnation of gays, it is still possible to have been raised Catholic and not beleive this. Does this make you less of a Catholic?
Well, yeah. Catholicism is a set of beliefs. Someone who believes fewer of these beliefs is, logically, less of a Catholic than someone who believes all of them.
You said: just because people are using the christian bible as an excuse to persecute, doesn't mean that Jesus would have approved.
You might not think so, but they do. And, as followers, they're much more qualified to judge.
I feel like you're defending followers of religions as long as everyone's willing to defy their religions so that they'll get along with other religions.
I don't think banning religion is necessary, possible, or even good. But something needs to be done.
oooooh, a debate!
Of course you are right that celebs are entitled to opinions just like anyone else. And if he's said his thing at dinner or while walking down the street, that's different than saying it at a press conference. In this case, I got the vibe that he was making a proclaimation, and not just stating an opinion. But that could just as easily be the fault of the journalist, or me.
It's a sticky chicken v egg issue about religious inspired violence. Sane people don't pick up a holy book, read it and then start killing people. Even Mein Kampf doesn't make anyone kill people just by existing, nor does religion. Bad people convince others that God wants them to *insert unspeakable act here*. But the evil starts with people and not with religion. I can't think of any example of religious violence that doesn't involve some kind of whacko despot or a reasonable facsimile therein.
As to the cafeteria business, I cannot name one single person--not even H, who actually follows every tennant of his religion at all times. My faith is pretty lax and I still can't do it. Does this mean that no one has pure faith? It may. But by that logic, the Pope is less of a Catholic because he joined the Nazi party. Not only did he align himself with bad people, but he followed a man (hitler) before God. If you can do that and still become Pope, I'm led to beleive there's some wiggle room there.
I cannot find biblical evidence that Jesus ever preached hatred, violence, or bigotry. The further back into the apocrypha you go, the more Jesus sounds like Confucious, only with a wife ;-]
Religion is indeed, the opiate of the masses. This means it is helpful and soothing at times, but if you get addicted to it, it's gonna fuck up your life and everyone around you. So be on the lookout for signs of opiate induced craziness.
I feel like you're defending followers of religions as long as everyone's willing to defy their religions so that they'll get along with other religions
This is probably more accurate than I'd like to admit. Did you know H and I almost broke up a few weeks ago over this "mixed marriage" (the religion thing, not the race thing) business? It sucked. And I often forget that all non-wiccan pagans are not me, and all christians are not like H and his fam.
Jesus did say "do unto other's as you would have them do unto you." He also said "that which you do to the least of my brothers, so you have done unto me." This sums up what Christianity should be IMHO. Paganism is more of a "do what thou wilt" with the "harm none" thing in there if you like it. Both premises require honestly, self searching, and a healthy dose of common sense. No wonder they had to come up with extra rules. ;-]
I remain of the opinion that religion would be fine if ignorant people would stop fucking it up.
Re: oooooh, a debate!
But the evil starts with people and not with religion. I can't think of any example of religious violence that doesn't involve some kind of whacko despot or a reasonable facsimile therein.
Ah, but don't we define anybody who commits violence in the name of religion as a wacko? I know I do.
I cannot name one single person--not even H, who actually follows every tennant of his religion at all times.
It's very interesting that you bring up the Pope as someone who might be the closest to a perfect follower but still imperfect. I always thought that, in a similar manner to how GWB sees his own indiscretions, the Pope doesn't have to worry about following the religion, 'cause he is the religion. (Turns out papal infallibility doesn't work that way.)
But I digress! Being a perfect follower may be asymptotic, but still a good follower should certainly aim for perfection, right? There may indeed be wiggle room, but surely the rules that we feel bad about breaking are more forgivable than the ones that we skip because they don't match our curtains!
I remain of the opinion that religion would be fine if ignorant people would stop fucking it up.
And I agree with that — except that I think it's a lost cause, since religions with dogmas condone -- nay, treasure! -- ignorance.
Re: oooooh, a debate!
Usually. I think there's a difference between a terrorist and a stupid young kid who follows a charismatic leader who s/he beleives is speaking for God.
I'd say the same thing about a kid who joins the army to fight terrorism. They beleive it's a noble goal, like some of the mooks who bomb abortion clinics. Some are wackos and some are naive and led astray. One bad minister can corrupt a whole town.
A good follower probably should aim for perfection. Then again, only Jesus was perfect. But sometimes--Jews and Catholics in particular have that "say you're sorry and get square with god" clause they do. And if you know you can do pretty much anything before a sincere repentence, you can justify all manner of insideous deed.
I know some christians who are really bummed about the church's stance on gays and gay marriage, even female ordination is a touchy topic in some places. But these are the kind of conflicts that Catholics would discuss with a priest. Some will say that compassion for all mankind is the answer, and some would say something like "don't concern yourself with the welfare of the hellbound." And it's up to you which type of priest you're going to listen to (most churches will have one of each).
You know, I honestly beleive that not all religions are dogmatic. the Jews, for example, (reform, I mean) are a thinking bunch. They prize wisdom, study, and questioning. And purim is the greatest holiday EVAR!
Re: oooooh, a debate!
The deacon who sits behind me says repentance doesn't work that way: you can't premeditate it, y'know? Then again, he's not Catholic or Jewish, so.
Re: oooooh, a debate!
Besides, it's only premeditated if you're really planning ahead. Most people are not good planner aheaders.
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Homophobe!
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