wednes | Wednes Writes, about the Right to vote.

Current Music: quiet, I should be sleeping

Entry tags:

Wednes Writes, about the Right to vote.

Let me begin by saying that the election results are great. I'm excited for a minimum wage increase, although it's not gonna do me much good until I actually find a job. Because all wages will go up in the process--maybe not as much as they should, but they'll go up.

What I want to mention though, is the vitriol I'm hearing toward people who choose not to vote. It was all over the TV (even Mtv), all over my flist, and the internets in general. Apparently you suck, you should be ashamed of yourself, and you have no right to be dissatisfied with the current regime if you did not vote.
I don't mind telling you that I think all that is bullshit.
And as I was just saying yesterday, that attitude further divides and polarizes us as Americans.

1. People who are not informed on the issues should not vote. In fact, they are largely responsible for fucking things up. And by "informed" I don't mean that you've seen all the ads. I mean informed by non-partisan information, or at least all the varied partisan info you can find.

2. A right is not the same as an obligation. Voting is a personal choice, like having an abortion or coming out. The real trouble begins when we start telling others that they need to do what we do, because we're totally right and they're totally wrong. People, why do I even need to explain this? And yeah, it's probably true that plenty of people are too apathetic, frustrated, or plain lazy to vote. And you know what? That's none of anyone else's business. Just do your thing and stay out of my beeswax!

3. I did happen to vote, since the Dick DeVos people were giving out rides to the old and/or lazy...and me. FYI, I did not, nor would I ever have, voted for Dick DeVos. In fact, here's a not-so loving good bye to DeVos, Rick Santorum (I shall miss mocking you, sir), Donald "Rummy" Rumsfeld, and the scores of other fascists I'm forgetting. *waves with cupped hand like in the parade*

4. We should try not to hate people who disagree. I have as much trouble trying to reasonably disagree as many of you, but that really should be our goal. I oppose affirmative action, and I've found very few people who can respectfully disagree with me. I've been called every kind of rascist, conservative, bigot in the world. But you know what? Bill Clinton doesn't support it either, and he's awesome. Bush supporters make me mad and frustrated as hell, but hating them just takes up too much of my day, seriously.

5. I find it difficult to argue the point that voting is just a game straight, white, christian, land owning males play with eachother in order to fool the proles (that's us) into thinking we have some input on this shit. Why aren't we voting on where to spend taxes where it counts? Why don't we have legal pot and national healthcare? Because no one gives a damn what the average citizen needs or wants. We stood by helplessly while a man most of us didn't vote for destroyed our woldwide credibility, ignored americans during life threatening crises, and feigned ignorance before the world about what is and is not torture. There was nothing we could do about it, because we have no power. And that's with me voting every time...
So I can see where people are coming from when they make their choice not to vote.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

i felt so out of the loop on this voting round. i try not to vote unless i'm educated (like your number 1) and that means really doing the research. since i've been living in babyland i didn't do this (nor could i have ever made it out to vote)

with that said, i am just thankful i do not have to see another retarded dick devos add with his stupid daughters in it for a while.

I think Southpark summed it up nicely. What's the point in voting if your choices are a Giant Douche and a Turd Sandwich?

But I think you're wrong(of course) about voting being a trick by the powerful to keep us thinking we have some say. It is, but it's our own fault. The fact remains that we outnumber them, if we really wanted to change things we could. But we don't. The overwhelming majority of Americans are too lazy or complacent to care. Imagine if all the eligible voters who don't vote started voting for one party, they would take power in only a few years.

By we I mean the proles, and by them I mean the people who are currently in charge.

By the way was Granholm the Giant Douche or the Turd Sandwich? ;-)

Since I can't edit comments I'm adding a PS. I guess I don't think you're wrong about voting being a "game straight, white, christian, land owning males play with eachother in order to fool the proles" I just blame the proles for it instead of the straight, white, christians.

Why would you blame the victims?

Because they are victims of their own complacency. The elite wouldn't be able to play their power game if the proles didn't let them.

That is absurd.

And since when do you say "proles?"

It is not absurd to hold people responsible for their inaction. People who don't participate in government shouldn't complain about how they are governed.

I figured since you used that term in the post I would stick with it.

Okay...and what about those of us who did vote and are still powerless? Or is that why voters are supposed to look down on non-voters the same way Christians look down on non-christians?

I just don't see why the issue has to create such animosity.

People who voted but still feel they need to get their message across could write letters to the politicians that represent them. They could support political organizations, or join together with other like-minded people and form new organizations. Through an organized effort they could pressure politicians into addressing their grievances.

This issue doesn't have to create animosity. I don't even understand why you would say that.

Well, the post was about the animosity of the issue of whether or not to vote. I thought it was clear.

I don't understand why you chose to say that in that comment. It wasn't in reply to anything I said, nor did it seem to be relevent to the portion of your post that I was commenting on.

I didn't realize I had to restict my comments in the way you describe.

But while I have your attention, I've recently been told that Honore wants apple pie for her birthday. I imagine you have a recipe that will be helpful to me, yes?

You don't have to restric your comments, and I didn't say that you did. I just didn't understand(and still don't) why you made the comment. So I stated that I didn't understand why you made the comment.

I don't use a recipe per say. I use the Better homes and gardens recipe and make modifications as I see fit. Like I never measure anything accurately, even when I should.

Here is the recipe.

Crust (double for covered pie of course)
1.25 cups flour
1/4 teaspoon salt (I generally leave this out and no one has ever noticed or complained)
1/3 cup shortening (I use butter flavored crisco, Alton brown as you probably know suggests using half lard and half butter)
4-5 tablespoons of water

6 cups apples or 2.25lbs (I eyeball the apples, 8 if they are small 4 if 6 if they are large. When in doubt use another apple)
1 tablespoon lemon juice (optional)(I only did this when we were at my parents because they keep fresh lemons around.)
0.75 cup sugar
2 tablespoons flour
0.5 teaspoons ground cinnamon
0.125 teaspoons ground nutmeg

I never measure the spices and often throw in cloves because I like them. I also use the cinnamon liberally, but you've probably noticed that.

Some of the modifications I often do are dumping a bunch of raisins in the spice mix before I start adding the apples. A friend of mine suggests soaking the the raisins in rum for 24 hours or more. I prefer a crumb crust. This recipe says to cover the edge of the pie with foil for the first 40 minutes and then to remove it for an additional 20 keeping the oven at 375. But my mother's book from 30 years ago doesn't say anything about foil, it just says 60 minutes at 375.

Crumb crust
0.5 cup flour
0.5 cup packed brown sugar
3 tablespoons butter

Cut it together like you would a normal pie crust and sprinkle it evenly over the surface before baking.

I use 4 tablespoons of butter and add cinnamon by eye. I also recomend that 10 minutes before you take the pie out that you use a spray bottle to mist the crumb crust. Otherwise it can be a little powdery. Too much misting and it becomes more like frosting.

I left out a bunch of instructions because I assume that you know how to make an apple pie.

I'm much better at cooking than baking, but I'll give it a whirl.

I may end up cheating and buying a crust though. I'd hate to screw it up and have no pie for her--it does look simple enough though.

Are we getting together tomorrow?
I get paid and will need to order a pizza.

As to my specific comment, I was saying that even if people disagree on the issue that there needn't be so much animosity. The whole point of the post was on animosoty between voters and non voters, and it's polarizing and negative effects.

I don't even see them as two different things. I think of baking as a form of cooking.

The crust really is the hardest part. I might buy crusts this year. They sell them all rolled out and everything between waxed paper. At least they used to.

Kim assumed we were getting together tomorrow. I can't cover any pizza in advance so maybe you should come out. We'll figure something out.

Our political system seems to encourage polarization. It sucks. I also think there is something in human nature that polarizes people.

if we really wanted to change things we could. But we don't.

I'm intrigued by this. What, exactly, do you think we should be doing that we aren't?

What was the voter turnout 55%? Something like that right?

The 45% who didn't vote is a greater number of people than what voted for either party individually. They could control politics in America if they organized.

Of course, that is assuming that they are allowed to vote, and not turned away for spurious reasons. It is also assuming the Diebold machines are not rigged, and that every vote is counted.

I have no faith in any of those things; and I don't guess I'm alone in that.

I know you love to be argumentative, so I'll ask: do you honestly beleive that the way to make lasting change is to "get out there and vote"? And that the reason such change has not been affected yet is that not enough people vote?

Yes I do think that we could make a lasting change through voting. And that the reason the country is run this way is not only because not enough people vote, but also because people vote out of ignorance. In democracy the people get the government they deserve.

Wow...

I had no idea you didn't know the last two prez elections were stolen. I thought that was accepted as common knowlege.

I would appreciate it if you would not make assumptions about what I do and don't know. When you want to actually discuss this let me know.

I would appreciate it if you would not make assumptions about what I do and don't know.

I don't understand what you're trying to say here.
We've discussed it. I could have sworn we were in agreement that the last 2 elections were stolen.

And if indeed, that is the case, than voting is most certainly NOT the answer.

When you want to actually discuss this let me know.

I didn't. I posted my opinion in my journal and you popped by to say I was wrong. You then validated my point, and then said I was wrong again. Then presented an argument which further validated my point, then copped that wierd attitude thing you do where you pretend everyone is oppressing you.

Feel oppressed?
Well, get out there and vote!

If you are so certain that we are in agreement that the last 2 elections were stolen then why would you write "I had no idea you didn't know the last two prez elections were stolen." which obviously intended to imply that I didn't know the last two elections were stolen. But if your attempt is to refute my belief that voting works by pointing out fraudulent elections then you are mistaken. Has it ever occurred to you that voting could work despite election fraud? Election fraud has been happening ever since the first election and will be around as long as elections. Surely you don't question the validity of every election?

Besides, I agree that the '00 election was definitely stolen, but only that the '04 election was possibly stolen.

I assumed that because you were discussing this issue that you wanted to discuss it. But then you made a statement that was neither in support of your opinion, nor in descent of mine. It confused me as to your purpose so I asked for you to let me know when you wanted to discuss the issue again.

why would you write "I had no idea you didn't know the last two prez elections were stolen."

I assumed I was mistaken. I have this capacity to reexamine my behavior in the face of evidence to the contrary. You might try it some time.

I assumed that because you were discussing this issue that you wanted to discuss it.

To my mind, I was repsonding to yet another of your "I agree with what you said, but here's why you're wrong..." statements.

And no, I don't think voting is the answer despite election fraud. Just like banking wouldn't work if bank fraud was more common. It makes me very angry to think that anyone would blame the voters for things they have no control over; then turn around and say election fraud doesn't affect things that much. It's absurd.

As for your community organization idea--I've been a part of several GRPO's in my life. If you have been, it's news to me. Between ACORN and PIRGiM, the league of women voters and several Get Out the Vote campaigns, I can tell you that it isn't nearly enough to make any lasting governmental change. Hell, people have been working on Detroit for 20 years and it's still a cesspool in places.

The next time you are confused as to where I stand on an issue you should ask me. That way we can avoid tedious misunderstandings made through assumptions.

So you weren't discussing this issue, you were repeatedly responding to my comments regarding the issue. My bad.

I don't blame voters for things that they have no control over, nor have I. I blame non-voters for what they do have control over. And I never said that election fraud doesn't affect things much. I said that voting can and does work despite election fraud. If you are waiting around for an election that isn't tainted even the slightest by fraud then you will be waiting a long time. Probably forever.

The next time you are confused as to where I stand on an issue you should ask me. That way we can avoid tedious misunderstandings made through assumptions.

How about this, how about you send out memo's so we can all be aware when you change your mind on topics from week to week. I cant' tell you how many irate government related phone messages I've gotten from you in the past. Never once did you mention that this was caused by a lack of voting. No...it was all about Bush being an ass, being stupid, being a liar, etc.

Maybe you'd like to deny ever saying you were pro-life as well?

And yes, as I have already stated numerous times, I find your bullying behavior intolerable--which means I don't tolerate it. This is why I respond each and every time, I can't stand to let bullies get away with their bullying bullshit.

I simply don't see how voting "can and does" work in the face of rampant fraud? Did you hear that on NPR or something?

I would appreciate it if you could stick to the topic at hand and not make inflammatory statements.

I have never in my life supported a law banning abortion. I have, on occasion, tried to explain to people that the pro-life argument for such a law is not totally irrational.

My behavior has not been bullying.

I never said that voting works in the face of rampant fraud. If you must quote me then please do it in context. I said that it can and does work despite fraud. If election fraud can't be overcome by an educated conscientious electorate then voting has always been and will always be a sham.

Here's you telling me how rude I am for saying that if you think people who have abortions are murderers, that you are pro-life.

http://nate101000.livejournal.com/38711.html

I am unclear on what statements you consider inflammatory, nor do I understand how you would define your behavior, if not bullying.

If election fraud can't be overcome by an educated conscientious electorate then voting has always been and will always be a sham.

Well, yes. That's what I've been saying all along.
It's a fucking sham.

And if the electoral fraud we've experienced is not rampant, I cannot imagine what you would consider rampant to be. More than 5K dead people voted in Detroit's last mayoral election, while hundreds more were turned away from the polls. And that's just one election in a city most people don't even care about.

Please read the post again. No where in that post, in the comments, or in the live conversation that inspired the post did I say that I am pro-life. Nor did I say that I think people who have abortions are murderers. What I said was...

"I have this capacity to reexamine my behavior in the face of evidence to the contrary. You might try it some time."
"How about this, how about you send out memo's so we can all be aware when you change your mind on topics from week to week."
Not only do these statements have nothing to do with the discussion at hand, they can only serve to antagonize me.

I have been respectfully disagreeing with you. Exactly what have I done that is bullying?

So all voting everywhere is a sham? I don't see that the evidence supporting that. Some elections have been shams, that doesn't invalidate all of them.

I'm not saying that the last Detroit election wasn't rampant fraud, it was. And so was the 2000 presidential election.

The desparity seems to be: if the elections are frauds, then voting doesn't help the populus, they are powerless.

I don't understand how voting can be both a fraudulent sham and still be the key to change. IMHO they are mutually exclusive.

Since not all elections are fraudulent then voting is not always a sham, only sometimes. Also, if the public showed up and voted for one candidate overwhelmingly then no amount of fraud could change the outcome.

I think that's true. But it assumes that most people will agree on one candidate. Even if you think Bush is a bad man and an incompetant leader, it would have been difficult to predict a lot of those outcomes. I mean, he is a spectacularly, astoundingly shitty president, when I thought he would be merely shitty.

Still, it's a gross oversimplification to say that people who don't vote are responsible for the horrors that go on in contemporary government. In fact, calling the non-voters more culpable that the actual perpetrators lets an awful lot of very bad men off the hook for their deeds.

I was both shocked and appalled by the '04 presidential election and also the last Detroit mayoral election. I was confident that the voting public would signify their displeasure by voting them out. As it was the Detroit election was so close that voter fraud almost certainly put it over to Kilpatrick, and the '04 was a wide enough margin that it might even have been legit. Maybe the idiot voters are more the problem than non-voters. Maybe we need a don't vote unless you're informed campaign instead of just encouraging people to vote just because they are supposed to. But I still say people who don't vote shouldn't complain.

I do see your points about how people should be able to choose not to vote...certainly, I don't think people should be forced to do anything they really don't want to do, but I also think it's important to fight the apathy and ignorance and confusion that people have regards voting so that they will be informed, choose to vote, and are able to get to the polls...each individual vote matters most when it's combined with everyone else's vote, and not voting means you're letting everyone who did vote make decisions for you, and whoever is allowed into power makes decisions that affect real lives...

I think the way elections and campaigns have evolved leaves many things to be desired...I wish there wasn't so much negative propaganda or so much squabbling by special interest groups...I wish there were a more level playing field instead of whoever has the most money wins (though of course that's a generalization)...I wish that all the hundreds of millions of dollars that were being spent on these campaigns could instead be used for things like education, health care, poverty relief, and disaster relief, and that the time spent on campaigns could be spent doing more legislative work...I think people wouldn't get bombarded so much with people trying to get out their vote, and encouraged to vote a certain way, if we had a better voter turnout to begin with...

You make some fine points here. I certainly agree that with some (read: a LOT of) reform we could get to a point where more people would be able to vote intelligently. And that we could reach a point where we could vote for someone we like, instead of trying to vote against the bigger evil.

I'm just so sick of what's going on politically, and sicker still that instead of going after the politicians, the average person looses thier venom on regular americans too depressed or apathetic to vote.

My dad never voted until Bush - and he used to bitch about politics all the time. I told him he didn't have a right to bitch because he didn't put in his two cents. I still think that. But I wouldn't go around giving people who aren't close to me a what for. And I certainly agree that if you aren't going to take the time to familiarize yourself with the issues than you shouldn't vote.

About Affirmative Action, I'm sure that we can find a more effective way to help disenfranchised, but until then, I think it's a shame that prop 2 passed.

No more affirmative action until Wednes gets a job.

Okay, that's a gross oversimplification, but I do feel strongly that you can't legislate an end to rascism, sexism, etc. We know people who claim to be well informed liberals who are incredibly sexist, sizist, and have no clue about the disabled or very poor.

I also think that the idea that some people need more help than others on the basis of race, gender, etc, is insulting and dibilitating. I expect people to follow anti-discrimination laws, but that is not the same as affirmative action.

[...] I've been called every kind of rascist, conservative, bigot in the world.

::spittake::

D'ohhhhh!!

Is it hard not to laugh inappropriately in people's faces when they say things like that??

I've never found a need to curb my uproarious laughter...so I wouldn't know. LOL

Come to think of it, that is probably why customer service work did not suit me.

Amen to that Wednes... *L* To let you know how out of the loop I was when my mum and I went into the polls; apparently the state of Pennsylvania had a referendum on whether the state should accrue $20,000,000 of indebtedness to pay for the treatment of veterans from the first persian gulf war (their gulfwar syndrome, shell shock, etc)... when did I learn of this referendum, being the avid newspaper reader I am? When I arrived at the poll. I don't think the measure was passed, as I have heard nothing more on the subject.

*Rolls eyes*

At any rate, I'm glad Santorum's out now... and first thing tomorrow, or so, I'm going to be writing a letter to Senator Robert Casey Jr.

Doncha just love our American democracy?

Well, Pennsylvania politics are crazy. H's family is suing the Philly police as we speak, and then I imagine they'll be getting the hell out of town.

Admittedly, there's a lot about politics I don't understand. But I know that the bullshit going on today is not the fault of people too discouraged to vote.

You think that wages will increase if the min does? I really hope so but my hope isn't too strong :( Somehow I think it will just make my wage more pathetic.... well here's to hoping anyway!

I do.

If you were making $7 an hour before, and minumum wage goes from $5 to $7, the $7 job will have to increasse it's wage just to stay competitive. Competetive wages are how employers secure better people, and can also reduce turnover (which is expensive to employers) if they treat their people right.

Josh H and I had a lovely walk down memory lane on this past election day. We spoke about the time at Alpha E that we divided the main common room into political parties and made a chart of the United States. As each state was taken by a party we colored it in. I remember Gina sitting in Ross Perot's camp and how disgusted I was with her. Then later Denny sat on the line because he had voters remorse...and I became disgusted with him lmao

This was my first time being eligible to vote...and what a memorable day that was:)

Interesting. I'm sorry I missed that. Especially if Denny admitted he was wrong about something. ;-]

Perot...LOL That's funny.

hmmm, I thought you were there for some reason. Well D voted Democratic but wished he'd had voted Libertarian. So i'm not so sure he admitted he was wrong about anything.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Wednes Writes, about the Right to vote.

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

Hah.

Re: Hah.

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject