wednes: (Default)
wednes ([personal profile] wednes) wrote2005-08-30 04:41 am

Late night rantings:

H and I just watched this movie Intermission which was quite excellent. It has cops and love affairs and divorces and robberies and kidnappings and fistfights and wheelchair races and urine. I get my reccomends, plus it has Cillian Murphy, and it you don't know who that is...you need to do a better job keeping up with film. The film also features the actress who plays Moaning Myrtle in the Harry Potter movies, Collin Farrell, Colm Meany and much, much more!

On a completely unrelated topic, I've heard a lot of people talking about the FDA's recent blockage of over-the-counter sales of RU486. I imagine I'm going to get bashed for this, but here goes. If you're going to abort a foetus, you need to be seen by a doctor first. That seems like a no-brainer to me. If nothing else, it will guarantee that at least one other person in the world knows what you're doing for safety reasons. As we all know from our reading, terminating pregnancies can go terribly wrong. That's the whole point of keeping them legal in the first place: so that a reputable doctor can be involved. And while I support people's right to privacy, and to make thier own choices over their lives and thier bodies...at home abortions are just not foolproof. There are also many women who should not use RU486 because of certain health risks and sadly, many women with those risks who would probably take it anyway because of what they may percieve as severe need.

People have said what about poor women who can't afford a doctor? They should be going to a free clinic or other low cost medical facilities. There are many, at least in my state. And if there isn't enough low cost healthcare in some places, that should be remedied. At-home abortions are not the answer to not-enough clinics for the poor. Not to mention, that with choice, comes responsibility. Be responsible for your health and see a doctor if you want to terminate your pregnancy. And while your there, you might want to consider some form of birth control if you haven't already.

I have never subscribed to the philosphy that children are punishment for sex. Abortion should always remain safe and legal, but a doctor should always be involved. Just because a medicine is availible and safe doesn't mean it should be availible over the counter. The potential for misuse would be enormous, not to mention the issue of minors using it, likely in secret. *shudder*

On another crazy unrelated topic, I used to want a machine that could do this since I was a little kid. They used to have them at the movies theatres, before the film came on...this is back in the day when there were no commercials before films. But I didn't know they really made them for regular people to buy. Even though I would probably never spend on this, it's awfully cool to know it's there if I ever want one.

[identity profile] lachupacabra.livejournal.com 2005-08-30 11:13 am (UTC)(link)
wasnt that movie GREAT!?!?!?

my mom & i watched it a few months ago & loved it.
(i like shirley henderson anyway).

i am SO sorry i wasnt able to make it on sunday.
i really super wanted to come but between mom sitting & my car being fucked up,
there was just no way. hopefully, we'll be able to hook up sometime soon. i have a
pile of stuff for you that just keeps growing.
:)

[identity profile] wednes.livejournal.com 2005-08-30 12:51 pm (UTC)(link)
*thoughts of stuff dancing in my head*

That's making me want to plan another party. I'll probably have a movie night once I get a decent TV, which should be in about 2 weeks once I see my buddy who's loaning me one.

And yes, that movie kicked so much ass.

[identity profile] lostsatellite.livejournal.com 2005-08-30 12:25 pm (UTC)(link)
I just returned Intermission to the library yesterday...I wasn't able to watch it yet though...but had to take back something in order to check out one of my holds, since I can only have three DVDs out on my (Kenosha) card at a time...

you make some good points that I haven't even considered about RU486...my one worry, though, is all the doctors who won't prescribe the Pill to women because of their own personal moral objections...when women have a doctor who becomes a roadblock to access to birth control, I imagine it would be even more difficult for women to find doctors who would prescribe RU486...not necessarily impossible, but unnecessarily difficult...and that definitely needs to be remedied...

[identity profile] 1-woman-army.livejournal.com 2005-08-30 12:45 pm (UTC)(link)
Who stays with a doctor that allows their religious/moral objections to get in the way of taking care of their patient(s)???? If I want to be on the pill and my doc refuses, he/she gets fired and I find a new doc that holds my welfare/choice in high importance.

[identity profile] lostsatellite.livejournal.com 2005-08-30 12:51 pm (UTC)(link)
yes, but my point is that doctors shouldn't be allowing their objections to get in the way of providing for women's health care in the first place...

[identity profile] 1-woman-army.livejournal.com 2005-08-30 01:08 pm (UTC)(link)
Oh I know! I'm sorry if that seemed snotty or like an attack. Twasn't intended that way at all! It just shocked me to hear that there are doctors out there where their beliefs would get in the way of my choice.

[identity profile] lostsatellite.livejournal.com 2005-08-30 02:08 pm (UTC)(link)
no worries, as I didn't interpret it as an attack...it made me realize that I needed to clarify what I was trying to say a bit...

and yes, it is very shocking!

[identity profile] wednes.livejournal.com 2005-08-30 12:56 pm (UTC)(link)
I think the answer to your question is: poor people who don't have a wide range of choices. Even so, the idea is to increase proper medical care for all rather than asking people to choose thier own meds off the store shelf.

[identity profile] 1-woman-army.livejournal.com 2005-08-30 01:18 pm (UTC)(link)
Hmmm how strange. I've never heard anyone talk about or met any doctor's that would allow their beliefs to come before their patient's, in the realm that we're talking. And I've been on welfare, as a child....call me naive and it may be true, but I'm just baffled by the idea of this.

[identity profile] pyrafire.livejournal.com 2005-08-30 02:10 pm (UTC)(link)
I think it has a lot to do with where you live/are from. My guess would be that in very small, conservative, rural towns, you might get a bit of static trying to get a morning after pill prescribed, and I think it's actually quite likely that you would find it difficult to find someone who would perform an abortion. I think this only applies in a very few places however. Most of the developed areas of the country have at least enough variety to have one doctor who wouldn't have a problem with it.

[identity profile] 1-woman-army.livejournal.com 2005-08-30 02:57 pm (UTC)(link)
I guess...I live in central Kentucky and it's super conservative here. Not extremely rural, but still has its fair share of hillbillies and such. But we have three or four abortion clinics here. I can't imagine what it would be like to live in a place that didn't offer me options and where the doctors shoved their doctrine down my throat!

[identity profile] wednes.livejournal.com 2005-08-30 12:54 pm (UTC)(link)
I don't understand how it is legal for a doctor to refuse a medical solution based on thier personal views. But I am aware that this does go on. In a perfect world, no one should be forced to see a doctor who would be so dastardly. Actually, I have heard more about pharmacists doing this than doctors. I think I'd call the cops on a pharmacist who refused the orders of my doctor.

[identity profile] lostsatellite.livejournal.com 2005-08-30 02:08 pm (UTC)(link)
thanks for clarifying what I was thinking, because I've read more about such decisions taking place on the part of pharmacists, and that got jumbled into what I was thinking about doctors (though I have no doubt that some doctors refuse to prescribe such medication in the first place for their own personal reasons)...I agree, those kind of actions shouldn't be legal, but such "conscience clause" laws are indeed in the works...and unfortunately my state (Wisconsin) is one in which women have been encountered pharmacists and in which such laws are being considered...

[identity profile] wednes.livejournal.com 2005-08-30 02:14 pm (UTC)(link)
Yikes. That's the equivalent of a McDonalds employee refusing to serve someone a hamburger because they are a vegetarian. They wouldn't be allowed to serve people anymore and would likely be fired.

The point is, you shouldn't have a job that you can't do both correctly and objectively.

[identity profile] lostsatellite.livejournal.com 2005-08-30 02:32 pm (UTC)(link)
that is a good analogy...and pharmacists who aren't willing to consider prescribing birth control (which isn't only prescribed for controlling pregnancies anyway) is probably in the wrong field, or needs to broaden their moral compass a bit and let people make their own choices...

[identity profile] pyrafire.livejournal.com 2005-08-30 02:31 pm (UTC)(link)
I just have to be devil's advoacte here. Imagine that you are a doctor. You aren't necessarily convservative, and maybe you're not even involved in organized religion, but you strongly believe that life begins at conception and to prescribe a pill that ended life at that point would be just as much a murder as killing a two-year old child. You still want to be a doctor because you want to help people and it's something you've been working at your whole life. What do you do? Should you be forced to do something that to you is tantamount to murder? Should you be forced to quit your job?
If this were a completely insane belief(the idea that life begins at conception), then I would say that people would be correct in saying that a doctor has to prescribe the morning after pill if a patient wants it and it is safe. Plus, the guy probably shouldn't be a doctor if had completely bizarre delusional beliefs. But it's not completely insane. I'm of the opinion that we know so little about the origins and nature of life that almost no belief about these things is so bizarre that it should be completely discounted(Flying Spaghetti Monster, anyone?).
Now, I'm not saying that I believe in life at conception, but I'm also not prepared to say 100% for sure that it is not the case. We as human beings understand very little about the nature of life, individuality or the soul. Look at all of the different groups trying to explain it, but none of them adequately can. Religion, philosophy, science, but who knows which one(if any of them) are right. Not to mention that experts in each of these fields don't even always agree with each other. My point is that, to me, it actually seems quite wrong to basically force a doctor to do something that they believe is tantamount to murder or else they have to give up their job. Especially when it's possible(not very likely, but possible) that in the future, with more research or evolution or something, we could come to find out that they were right.

[identity profile] wednes.livejournal.com 2005-08-30 02:40 pm (UTC)(link)
I would say that the doctor should, without judging or prosletyzing, immediately reccomend another doctor who can better meet the patients needs. While they do have the right to thier feelings and to act accordingly; they do not have the right to excersize their will over anyone else.

[identity profile] pyrafire.livejournal.com 2005-08-30 03:28 pm (UTC)(link)
I disagree actually. I don't think the doctor(who again, believes it to be murder) should have to recommend another doctor who doesn't. If you need a recommendation, there are other ways of getting one, or you can find another doctor on your own(I don't know details of insurance, HMO's, etc, but if that kind of stuff stops you from finding another doctor, than that is what should be fixed), but if the person actually sees it as murder, this is like saying, "Yeah, I won't commit that murder for you, but I know this other guy who would. Let me get you his number."

[identity profile] wednes.livejournal.com 2005-08-30 09:27 pm (UTC)(link)
I see the point you are making, but I disagree. A woman...any patient really, should not have to go looking around for doctors during what could well be the most stressful time they've ever had. A doctors first responsibility is to thier patient, not to themself.

[identity profile] lostsatellite.livejournal.com 2005-08-30 02:43 pm (UTC)(link)
I understand what you're saying...and you're right, it's a hard call to have doctors make decisions that go against their beliefs...I don't think it's delusional to believe that life begins at conception, but I also think there needs to be a distinction between a developing cluster of cells in the very early stages of a pregnancy and a three month fetus or a baby...I don't think it's fair to equate preventing the implantation of miniscule cells in the uterine wall (as is done with the morning after pill) with abortion, which is what many pharmacists/doctors who interfere with access to birth control do...I also don't think it's fair for a woman who has a prescription for birth control, which can be for reasons much different than preventing pregnancy, be denied because some pharmacist says so...

[identity profile] nate101000.livejournal.com 2005-08-31 05:59 pm (UTC)(link)
I would propose that if your doctor is a private doctor. And will receive no public funding in compensation. Then the doctor can do anything he wants, and let the consumer decide.

However, if the doctor is a public doctor. In other words, he works at a free clinic, or he works at a public hospital. If the doctor receives public money to support his practice, then he doesn't get to decide. In that case, he is a servant of the people, and needs to abide by the law.

[identity profile] 1-woman-army.livejournal.com 2005-08-30 12:47 pm (UTC)(link)
I think you're totally right. There is no end to what sort of medical emergencies could occur in private. I'm all about the right to choose, but I think we should try to keep people healthy while they're making choices.

And I hadn't even thought about the minors...go you for fully thinking about the issue!

[identity profile] wednes.livejournal.com 2005-08-30 12:59 pm (UTC)(link)
I've talked to some people who are in a serious uproar about it. They feel that thier reproductive rights are in great jeopardy, and I understand given the gov't's history where these women are coming from. But I think the freaking out is a kneejerk reaction to a gov't who doesn't routinely focus on women's issues. In this one instance, I just think the potential harm outwieghs the benefits of over-the-counter availibility.

[identity profile] 1-woman-army.livejournal.com 2005-08-30 01:14 pm (UTC)(link)
I know a woman that has had 4 or 5 abortions and none of them were medical emergencies nor was she ever a victim of a rape/pregnancy scenario. Abortion became her birth control. I think selling RU486 over the counter would allow irresponsible individuals like her to further push the envelope in the realm of bad decision making. And I want my choice, believe me, but not if that means that a large percentage of women want to start using RU486 as a method of birth control as opposed to accepting responsibility for their own decisions/behavior.

[identity profile] wednes.livejournal.com 2005-08-30 01:34 pm (UTC)(link)
I totally agree with this sentiment. At the same time, I have heard it exaggerated and then argued to support/decry other things like the general legality of abortion, even welfare (welfare is bad because people cheat etc). So I guess that while I agree, saying that arguement out loud makes me nervous.

[identity profile] 1-woman-army.livejournal.com 2005-08-30 03:07 pm (UTC)(link)
Makes me nervous too. But I think it makes me more nervous to think of just how many lives would be ended or forever changed due to a lack of personal responsibility. Three years ago, I didn't plan on my kid and I contemplated abortion, I can't lie. But if RU486 had been over the counter, I can't even fathom how my life would be different. Because chances are, I would've chosen that option as would many women. And then I wouldn't have this little cutie:

Image

[identity profile] wednes.livejournal.com 2005-08-30 09:22 pm (UTC)(link)
OMG, that pic is fraking adorable!
groovesinorbit: (Default)

[personal profile] groovesinorbit 2005-08-30 03:01 pm (UTC)(link)
While I agree with you that women should see a doctor about any kind of abortion, this is a pretty safe drug. 6 deaths out of more than a million women in the last 14 years is a pretty low mortality rate. I really don't have a problem with it being an over-the-counter drug.

[identity profile] cmdavi-70.livejournal.com 2005-08-30 03:53 pm (UTC)(link)
I have no idea who Cillian Murphy is. Drat! I thought I did know something about film.

[identity profile] wednes.livejournal.com 2005-08-30 10:51 pm (UTC)(link)
28 Days Later
and Batman Begins leap to mind.

[identity profile] cmdavi-70.livejournal.com 2005-08-30 11:17 pm (UTC)(link)
Oh, still haven't seen either.

[identity profile] wednes.livejournal.com 2005-08-30 11:42 pm (UTC)(link)
?!?

28 Days Later is exceptional. But I can't possibly be the first person to tell you this. So scary...

[identity profile] cmdavi-70.livejournal.com 2005-08-30 11:55 pm (UTC)(link)
I'm not quite the horror film buff that you are, but I did want to see it when it was out, never got around to it, and alas, still haven't seen it. Ah well, one to put on the Netflix queue.

[identity profile] purplecat-a2.livejournal.com 2005-08-30 07:27 pm (UTC)(link)
Are you taliking about RU486 which caused a fetus to be aborted, or are you talking about the morning after pill, which is just a strong dose of the birth control pill.

[identity profile] wednes.livejournal.com 2005-08-30 11:04 pm (UTC)(link)
To be honest, I didn't make a distinction. But you're right, it's an important one. This article explains that difference in more detail for anyone else who wasn't up-to-the-minute.